Official Luthiers Forum!

Does anyone here take electric guitar commissions, if so what advantage does a luthier built electric guitar has over factory or Warmoth?

A solid body, bolt on neck Fender style guitar can be built by anyone with a CNC or they can get Warmoth to build all the parts, and all it really takes is assembly, the thing is basically solid wood so why would someone want a luthier built electric guitar?

I don't do electric guitar commissions but I'm trying to understand from a customer's perspective why they would want one... I understand for acoustic guitars hand made is better than factory made, but there's not much balancing between strength and weight with electrics other than the weight of the whole guitar to make it easier to play.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Why? Take a look at Stuart Gort's electrics. http://www.stuartkeithguitars.com/
You can't make a parts guitar look like his. I still have the hots for Miss Elise.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

" if so what advantage does a luthier built electric guitar has over factory or Warmoth?"

The same as a luthier built acoustic over a factory built acoustic - uniqueness and playability.

Let's see what are the actual questions here:

1) Does anyone here take on electric guitar commissions?

A) Yes, there are many.

2) What advantage does a Luthier built guitar have over a f*ctry or Warmouth guitar?

A) The last time that I checked no one at Warmouth is toiling endless by candle light (like our dear friend Hans ) to make these parts, they are factory made as well. With that said this leaves us with the advantage part of the question.

I suspect that the answer(s) will be as differing as their are people in the world. Why do any of us want what we want... Some things that come to mind for me is that many f*ctory instruments are simply not all that.... OTOH some producers that might also be called f*ctories do a far better job than others.

Many of my clients like differentiation from the standard stuff that you see every day. Yesterday we set-up a Tele that was Luthier built, painted in a blue and gold Aztec theme, and equiped with hand wound pups. The client is an outstanding player and a guitar teacher. He wanted something different but also owns f*ctory instruments as well.

My suggestion to you, Tai is to ask clients why they may or may not prefer a Luthier built instrument. Survey? That's what I do when I want answers from folks - I ask them.

You also said "I understand for acoustic guitars hand made is better than factory made."

I would not agree with this statement and this may surprise some here. Why? We see the guitars that folks who want to call themselves Luthiers have built.... and some are fantastic, some are very average with many of the same issues as f*ctory instruments, and some absolutely suck and were never ready for prime time.

Have you ever noticed someone's work, perhaps on this very forum, that does not look ready for prime time but sure enough it's for sale....

From time to time I have to explain to someone that their prized instrument built locally or otherwise is toast and not likely worth the cost of the needed repairs. Mind you I don't attempt to make the value judgement as to what may be worth it for my clients but I do present the facts, only the facts. When they have to come to the conclusion that their ten year old $4K "hand-built" guitar with a serial number of 109.... is toast because it needs a neck reset, retop, green wood was used, lifting bridge, terrible fret work that needs to be redone, and a twisted, warped neck with the frets that are not loose being the exception to the ones that are..... it's not a pleasant position to be in for the client or for us....

Their are f*ctories who do great work for the most part and it's really kind of unfair of me to call factories f*ctories as I do and have for years now. And there are factories who's products suck as well. The same holds true for individual builders what ever we wish to call them this week.

Also Google "world's most valuable 10 guitars" and see how many Luthier built instruments are listed....

Hand built is how something was made and not indicitive of a level of quality for better or worse.

And you know what? That's my take on it too seeing some pretty terrible so-called hand built guitars that may have cost a client far more than a f*ctory instrument and at the end of the day failed when it comes to delivering the anticipated value.

No offense intended to anyone but I do think it's important to never be so arrogant as to assume that what we may do is superior because we do it....

I build too and if I took this position, that Luthier built is superior to f*ctory built as a rule not only would I be wrong which I am pretty good at by the way... but I would also be exposing myself to the possibility that my own stuff may not be as good as it needs to be and unaware of this....

Your post is a bit of a can of worms because in answering you other topics come up such as what exactly is a Luthier, do all f*ctories produce substandard products, market perceptions, measures of individual value, and on and on.

One way to find out some of the answers to many of these questions for yourself AND specifically in your own market which may be very different than the market of others here is to build em, hang em, show em, and if they offer a winning formula of craftsmanship, quality, features, artistic appeal, and pricing you may or may not have time to ask these questions.

Actually thinking back, I am forgetting what the original question was....

Part of the problem is we are all too polite here. We don't really DO appropriate criticism. Over at Sawmill Creek, in the Project forum, there is a notice that says something like "if you post pictures, be prepared for honest criticism". I like that. I wish we had a subforum here where one can post pictures for honest opinions.

I'd like to think I'm honest here, even when it hurts or offends.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

How is it possible to build a guitar with green wood? If you buy wood from LMI it's properly dried and seasoned that it should work out of the box, and for a commission I'll always go with LMI because I know their stuff works and is guaranteed to work. If I buy stocks from a lumberyard I always assume that they are green and season them accordingly. It should be fairly obvious during construction if the wood is not at equilibrium (potato chip after bracing, caved top, etc.) so I'm not even sure how is someone able to build over 100 guitars and have problems like that?

I tend to focus on cosmetics because I know that's what customers look at first, but sometimes that's a little hard too because gaps always likes to appear in the most inappropriate places at the worst possible time...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

"How is it possible to build a guitar with green wood?"

Some people resaw their own back and side sets. Soundboards bought from sawmills are not necessarily as dry as they should be. Not all guitar makers are careful of humidity conditions during construction.

"Part of the problem is we are all too polite here. We don't really DO appropriate criticism. "

It is hard to offer constructive criticism from a picture or even a sound clip. Especially true when most of us are amateurs who want to offer encouragement to our fellow builders.

Hardwood from the lumber yard at least in the states isn't green, it's usually kiln dried versus air dried, which doesn't have as much stability as air dried but is nowhere near green...

This caused me to recall a conversation I had with my spouse, after I turned down a commission.

I put my work in the above category, but I am shocked at how many people want me to build an instrument, willing to pay OK money as well. I usually try to refer them to Rick Davis of Running dog guitar in seattle. My wife gave me some insight though, the people who want me to build have the money to buy hand built instruments from worthy luthiers, but due to their own lack of abilities as a player or their lack of knowledge about guitars they are intimidated to approach a professional luthier.

Most of mine have gone to family, but I have sold some on commission. My terms: no down payment, no bad feeling if they do not want it. I will only build instruments I would want to build anyway. As an enthusiast I would be building anyway. My main fear is to have my kids find me as an old man with a basement of guitars, so I do try to find owners.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

"Part of the problem is we are all too polite here. We don't really DO appropriate criticism. "

I agree. But try to criticize and you have someone yelling that you aren't following the rules and you are being harsh and judgmental. My favorite is the "you are being judgmental and after our recent losses it's just not right to state your opinion when someone could be offended by it"

As far as building Electrics IMHO it makes no sense to build a standard copy of a name guitar for a customer.
The Factory can do it much cheaper and they add the value of the Name which is significant for most players.
But a custom model with features and details especially for the player, that is another matter.

You are talking about the first electric I ever built from scratch. A client wanted an all walnut LP with the neck joint molded smooth, and a few custom touches.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Why does building a copy of say a telecaster make no sense? People request luthiers to build replica martins everyday. I don't see a difference. A reproduction is a reproduction. Don't know why an electric reproduction would be less desirable than an acoustic.

Mainly because electric guitars are an industrial product
I can't make a '52 Telecaster for example anywhere near as cost effectively as Fender can due to economies of scale in purchasing materials and in having templates and jigs permanently set up and working in batches etc
I have made reproductions for myself but adding in my labour cost at a true hourly cost for a customer tends to make it pretty uneconomic.
Buying prefab bodies and necks and assembling is another matter. Even then costs can quickly add up.
Last Tele assembly I did for a customer, I charged him $250 for a nitro finish to the body and $150 for wiring assembly and setup which was cheap. Pretty sure he had at least $900 into parts.

If you are building for the joy of it that is one thing, but if a customer wants both handmade and cheaper then that is hard to do

Please note that I said "subforum", not the general forum. I'd like to see a subforum where I could post pictures and expect honest criticism. I'm a big boy, I can handle it. Admittedly, it might be painful, but it can be good for me. The general forum is no place for this kind of stuff. And if one cannot handle "constructive criticism", then this subforum idea would be a bad place for one's work.

I don't know of anyone who buys a handmade guitar under the impression that it is cheaper than a factory built guitar. Whether acoustic or electric

But If I am building a standard design electric, I have to provide some reason for the customer to buy from me rather than a factory guitar hanging on the wall. If not price then it has to be "quality" but that is often measured by how authentic it is to the original 50's design rather than sound quality or ergonomics.

If it is a custom build then you have the chance to meet your customers needs and express some creativity

I agree, Jeff.
It seems utterly pointless to make an exact replica, especially a Fender. I make Teles using local hardwoods and change features to my liking such as a Gibson neck and fret board profile. I'm not a fan of screwed-on necks either (a wood screw is not a bolt). Mine look and sound like Teles but feel different. I am guilty of copying the basic design looks, but I'm not alone.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

You are exactly right in this matter. I don't build exact copies, but rather custom models with features and details especially for the player. that's what I did with this guitar.

It has highly figured quilt maple for the carved top, flat back, headplate and fretboard binding all cut from one billet so the shades would all match, on a one-piece Honduras Mahogany body.
It also has a quilted Honduras Mahogany neck, Brazilian Rosewood fretboard, Callaham solid steel block bridge and tailpiece, Lollar pickups, high quality Bournes potentiometers, stainless steel medium jumbo frets, and a brass nut. The finish is high gloss polyester.

The Factory couldn't have made this guitar as well as this one is made due to their factory procedures that even their most Custom instruments are made with, I do believe, as most of my build methods have been developed to improve on the processes they use to speed up their production and to avoid neck and geometry issues related to that, even if the guitar were to spec'ed out identically.

The client is a multi-millionaire who has owned every high end factory guitar and most of the famous luthier-made guitars and tells me it's his favorite guitar and is now his go-to instrument.

So for him, he wanted something that he perceived as being unavailable from a factory, and appreciated the ability to select all his woods from my stash personally himself, which basically illustrates why someone would commission an instrument rather than going down to GC and picking one off the wall or ordering a custom one from a factory.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I believe the above statement is in response to the reply I made in the following thread, if you want to read it in in its context, here it is, if you don't care, I have even more respect for you
viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43488

Which gets us back to the tangential matter at hand. Offering constructive criticism is a touchy area because some people are less sensitive & don't realize that they may offend, or what they consider as constructive and objective is not (i.e. there is a difference between objective & subjective, or at least that's what I learned in high school.)

Kevin Looker

edit:
that is one beautiful LP, thanks for sharing

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

I don't think I can get a neck like this at Warmoth

Awesome LP!!!! Absolutely gorgeous.

Kevin, haha I forgot you had said that. I've seen that statement used by numerous people over various threads since it happened and I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.


John,
That neck is beautiful. What's it going on?

That's about the best looking LP that I have ever seen on the OLF!!!

There are other very good reasons to not make exact copies such as having your arse sued off by everything-is-always-about-me Henry at gibson. He's done it before, did it to PRS, and is more than happy to do it again as well. The cease and desist letters are legendary in the biz and even impacted small builders as well.

Now that he's been busted for poaching.... he likely has paid some pretty hefty retainers to the legal team who now that Gibson settled and paid the $300,000.00 fine may not have enough to do.....

As we see further consolidation in the industry, assimilations of smaller companies by the larger ones, it's also more likely that folks will be even more litigious in policing designs.

It's never a problem if you are building for you but if you sell your stuff best to have some differentiation or be called before the man.

It's going on another DC Les Paul/PRS type, which I'm very close to getting into finish.